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hi i'm john tilke a nasa co-op and i'm

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here with steve bowen a retired navy

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captain

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and

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now a nasa astronaut

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thank you hi i wanted to ask you about

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your experience in the navy and how you

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guys use non-destructive evaluation

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when you're under c oh well

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non-destructive evaluation you actually

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use it all the time and obviously

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there's

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some highly controlled

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non-destructive evaluation that you get

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to use radiography in the shipyard in

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particular it's not something you can

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take underway with you not something you

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can take the space with you

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ultrasound for pipe wall thickness we

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use that vibration monitoring even sonar

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itself we use that on

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submarines to analyze ourselves and

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assess ourselves and space it's a

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similar it can be very similar at times

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obviously we do a lot of non-destructive

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evaluation on the ground

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for systems before we launch them

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i think the space shuttle

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external tank was a

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a really good example where they

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developed a very specific ultrasonic

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testing system

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before they shipped the tank it was

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pretty neat to go and see

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so non-destructive evaluation you know

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it's been in sort of everything i've

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done since i graduated from college has

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had some little

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part of it

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ensuring that the vehicles i've been

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living on have been safe to operate and

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it covers such a broad broad range of

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things

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i mentioned some of the more specific

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nde techniques but we even went to the

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point of you know you're tapping on a

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pipe and you're listening and feeling

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for the response

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as you go along and in space a lot of

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what you're doing is a similar you're

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listening to the vehicle itself you're

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listening for changes you're listening

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for

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things that are not quite right

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as you move around if things move a

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little bit differently and i know

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when we go out and do space walks the

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teams on the ground look at the video to

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see how

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our movements affect the vibration of

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the space station to

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to do some load testing so it's sort of

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an everything sort of question i guess

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when you ask it like that

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awesome

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so how long does it take for you to live

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in this kind of vehicle to get a feel

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for

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the health and that's actually an

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interesting question because you know we

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tend to fall back a lot on automated

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not always are they capable of picking

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up the subtleties and the trends and the

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the programming

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of the human mind so i always thought an

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intelligent operator was key to ensuring

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that we were getting the most out of

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this testing obviously you can go back

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and you take data from a vibration

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monitoring system

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and you can do a pretty high level

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assessment of what bearing is going to

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fail where the the problems are

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but somebody standing next to the pump

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doing that first cut often was able to

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pick up a lot of the stuff before we

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could even get it analyzed similarly on

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a

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listening

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carefully you you know what normal

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sounds like that's a very important

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thing or you know what normal looks like

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what it feels like it takes time to

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establish that

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you know it could be in terms of weeks

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or months

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there's always the anecdotal stories of

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the

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crew member on a submarine that hears a

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a squeeze you know a change in the tone

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that he associates with changing in

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depth and he and he reports it and

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suddenly the the boat is a little more

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concerned that they didn't know they

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were changing in depth

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you know it takes that sort of awareness

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in the vehicle you're living on and

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that's

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from the engineering side of it where we

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actually can take the data

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and have people who are experienced with

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the data as we are you know mission

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control down here with the space station

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they can look at the information they

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get back on the loads and the monitoring

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of like the uh

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cbms and

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that

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you know cmgs i should say the control

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memorizers they can look at that data

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and they can tell you ahead of time

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how they're operating and that that

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real-time monitoring is key to make sure

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that the vehicles are safe to live on

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and operate

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so you're talking about the

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aware user yes how important do you

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think for when you're doing long

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duration space exploration are those

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automated systems going to be

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for allowing you well that's actually uh

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something i've put a lot of thought into

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on a submarine we were

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you know we had initially started off

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with like a vibration monitoring system

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the electrician we'd have to go out to

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each individual pump we had points that

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we could take uh

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trying to get that wired in to a

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continuously monitoring system or the

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ability to monitor when we wanted to

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and i think that that capability is even

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more important on like a space vehicle

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where you don't have that size crew for

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one you're not going to have the same

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number of intelligent operators out

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there

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listening aware of everything that's

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going on so they're going to need that

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data but you'll need people on the

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ground who can read and understand that

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data so you can pick up the problems

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before they become problems because

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oftentimes you can change the way you

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operate

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for a longer period of time

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or more safely

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with a

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you know a degrading system as opposed

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to a failed system if you continue to

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operate as it is

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so as we go forward we need to look

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and figure out

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how we're going to do that assessment

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without

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sort of the crew time and the crew

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tasking the crew members

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there to do it

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we can obviously send the information

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back to the ground we can have whole

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teams look at it but it's always going

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to be that first cut as it passes

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through that's guy that's going to pick

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up the the problems initially

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so any vehicle you build at this point

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you really need to put in different

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monitoring systems like you can you can

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imagine all sorts of interesting

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ways of looking at you know fluid

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systems and piping and

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you know vibration on pumps and motors

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and

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measurements that

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that can help you understand the

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performance of the vehicle that data

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just needs to get back to the ground or

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back to where the people can assess it

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on a submarine obviously it was on board

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for most but we would send data off

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periodically to to get other people look

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at it as well but it's

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it's vitally important for the long-term

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health of the vehicle and it might lead

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you

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that's degrading rapidly

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as opposed to if something fails

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outright that you could have detected

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earlier

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usually that's a lot worse than

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operating with a degrading system

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so

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obviously knowing your system as it's

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degrading is important but you've had a

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lot of experience with evas

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and going out and fixing things after

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they've broken yeah

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yeah unfortunately that's usually

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when you do stuff i had a lot of

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construction which was good

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on sts-126 we went out we went out and

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looked at the starboard

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sarge you know the large rotary joint

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which had

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damage to

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the surface

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of one of the bearings

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and

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you know they they had detected the

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anomalies in the vibration

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of the array in the motor currents

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for the drive motors and when the first

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people went out looked at it you could

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see the metal filings so we went and

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cleaned that up

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and we applied a

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layer of lubricant

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and returned it to full service which is

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i think pretty amazing

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but what they had done prior to that

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they actually had you know constrained

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the operations of that

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solar alpha joint rotary joint so that

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it would survive it survived long enough

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for us to be able to go and

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do a little bit of maintenance you know

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if it had if they had continued to run

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it

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running correctly

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you could have seized it up and it never

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would have been operational so that's a

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really good example of where

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that knowledge that monitoring of

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of a system allows to go and repair it

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and extend its life and because of that

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you know we lubricate the other side as

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well now

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and hopefully that will allow it to last

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the life of station

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so when you have something that lasts as

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long as a space station it's important

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to

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kind of regenerate your workforce and

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transfer that knowledge of operations

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and how things are run on to the younger

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generation yeah and that that's an

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interesting thing because sometimes

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the old guys sit around they tell

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stories you know they've gathered up all

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this experience over

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a lifetime of working well

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the space program is you know over 50

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years old now and there actually are

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very few of those old old guys

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left and the retirement of the shuttle

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there was a whole nother wave of

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tremendous experience that walked out

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the door

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and capturing that knowledge

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is difficult because a lot of times you

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learn things

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as they happen that experience that you

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get when something happens you know the

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first time the second time that just

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gets ingrained into how you operate how

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you do things

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that doesn't always make it obvious that

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you need to pass that on to the next

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person who won't have had that initial

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experience it's just something you kind

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of know

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so i think that there's a uh

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that knowledge of how the space station

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in particular operates as we proceed

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hopefully for another you know 14 15 16

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years of operation with the space

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station we'll see a whole nother

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generation of operators who come along

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and it'll be important

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that everybody that was there when we

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first detected the motor currents on the

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sarge or

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would notice the torn

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radiator panel and those those items we

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need to be able to pass on what were the

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cues what were the things that we

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learned what were the changes

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because if we don't pass that

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information on you won't they won't have

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that knowledge as when something else

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dramatically changes

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at the same time

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having a history of this having

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that long-term data that you've

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collected over time so you can see how

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something degrades over the life of the

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vehicle what we learned from this

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vehicle

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will be tremendously helpful as we go on

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provided we learn the lessons and we

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understand how

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how it's going to degrade and what that

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means operationally and how we can

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extend

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operations to to meet the requirements

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and what we need to do along the way and

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what systems what do we what knowledge

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are we missing you know what was not

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built into space station that would

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would have been helpful along the way

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that would have given us a little better

321
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insight into its operation and

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its aging process that that'll be

323
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interesting to see over time

324
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so what can you say to students to help

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inspire them to take up fields

326
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particularly in like nde well see as i

327
00:11:03,670 --> 00:11:01,040
was discussing earlier nde is such a

328
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broad all-encompassing term i

329
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i know

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uh from my experience

331
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i had the good fortune of being engineer

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of a submarine and spent a little bit of

333
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time in a shipyard environment actually

334
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even as a junior officer

335
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i think i spent a lot more time

336
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uh

337
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than the guys actually wanted me to you

338
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know talking to the sonar attacks

339
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talking to the electricians uh talking

340
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to the radiographers as they came on

341
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board the ultrasound technicians i

342
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always had a lot more questions is

343
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because it's it's an amazing concept

344
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that you can do something

345
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that's uh

346
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you're not violating

347
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the operational construct of the of the

348
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system whether it be the piping system

349
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or the

350
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and you're learning a lot you're

351
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understanding how it operates

352
00:11:52,310 --> 00:11:50,880
within it you know and encompasses such

353
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a broad range

354
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of uh

355
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science actually you know i

356
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i

357
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had a

358
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professor when i was in graduate school

359
00:12:04,629 --> 00:12:02,160
who said

360
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a wave is a wave he had actually been a

361
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nuclear engineer

362
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and he was teaching acoustics at a woods

363
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hole

364
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and he said you know it really is all

365
00:12:16,550 --> 00:12:14,000
part of the same problem you know and he

366
00:12:18,870 --> 00:12:16,560
was doing acoustic tomography which to

367
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assess ocean environments but in essence

368
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that is ultrasound you know in a

369
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different frequency range different

370
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scale but it's you know understanding uh

371
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the information you're getting back and

372
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what that's telling you

373
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is uh is incredible and then for me it

374
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was you know

375
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you see this piping system and you know

376
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fluid is flowing through there

377
00:12:45,269 --> 00:12:41,600
over time what is that doing to the

378
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interior of that piping is it is it

379
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is it corroding is it just eroding is it

380
00:12:52,069 --> 00:12:50,480
staying pristine is it putting a nice

381
00:12:54,470 --> 00:12:52,079
little protective coating of something

382
00:12:56,230 --> 00:12:54,480
else on there

383
00:12:57,990 --> 00:12:56,240
so the ability to look at that and

384
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assess that and understand

385
00:13:02,629 --> 00:13:00,240
those

386
00:13:05,750 --> 00:13:02,639
aspects of the system as they as they

387
00:13:07,110 --> 00:13:05,760
get used is is pretty pretty cool and

388
00:13:09,590 --> 00:13:07,120
you know a lot of ways it's very

389
00:13:10,790 --> 00:13:09,600
exciting and

390
00:13:12,470 --> 00:13:10,800
yeah

391
00:13:13,910 --> 00:13:12,480
i probably asked way too many questions

392
00:13:16,069 --> 00:13:13,920
of those guys who knows how many man

393
00:13:18,470 --> 00:13:16,079
hours i used up quizzing them because i

394
00:13:20,710 --> 00:13:18,480
just think it's it's a very exciting

395
00:13:22,629 --> 00:13:20,720
field actually fields

396
00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:22,639
i actually used an ir camera we had an

397
00:13:27,030 --> 00:13:24,720
ir camera on the boat and

398
00:13:29,350 --> 00:13:27,040
uh it was we had used it on board we had

399
00:13:30,870 --> 00:13:29,360
it on board for firefighting reasons

400
00:13:33,030 --> 00:13:30,880
but we had started to use them for cable

401
00:13:34,710 --> 00:13:33,040
inspections and we were able to identify

402
00:13:36,629 --> 00:13:34,720
different you know a cables with

403
00:13:39,269 --> 00:13:36,639
different problems and get them repaired

404
00:13:40,389 --> 00:13:39,279
by using an ir camera and

405
00:13:41,829 --> 00:13:40,399
so i think

406
00:13:44,150 --> 00:13:41,839
learning from that

407
00:13:46,790 --> 00:13:44,160
it's just amazing what you can

408
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:46,800
do with some of these techniques and

409
00:13:52,310 --> 00:13:50,160
such a broad broad just wealth of places

410
00:13:53,110 --> 00:13:52,320
to look and it extends you know what you

411
00:13:55,590 --> 00:13:53,120
learn

412
00:13:57,750 --> 00:13:55,600
uh maybe in one area as i pointed out

413
00:13:58,870 --> 00:13:57,760
will carry forth into other areas as

414
00:14:00,069 --> 00:13:58,880
well

415
00:14:01,590 --> 00:14:00,079
steve thank you so much for coming to